List Building & Skip Tracing & Data, Oh My!

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Faisal

You know, people are trying to do a million different things rather than just focusing on one avenue and, you know, just trying to scale that.

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Jarred (Host)

All right. Here we go. Everybody, welcome to episode three of the Wholster Real Estate Wholesaling Podcast. Today we have Faisal Morsi with Pinpoint Skip, a skip tracing and list building outfit based out of Maryland. Faisal. How are you, buddy?

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Faisal

I'm doing great, thanks for having me.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, absolutely. It's good to see you. I want to hear all about your story. You have a really interesting story. And I think, I think there's a lot of questions that people probably have about skip tracing and what it is. I know that I have, I probably have some questions. There's a lot of things that I didn't know when I was first starting out, too.

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Jarred (Host)

So. I think this is going to be a really good topic to cover. And let's start out with how did you get started in real estate? What interested you in getting involved in real estate?

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Faisal

Sure. So when I got out of college, I was a dad contractor for like five or six years. And I hit my ceiling in the company. So I decided to go back to school and teach myself like a computer programing language. It was a database language. And then afterwards I went got my at the time was my dream job for a software company.

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Faisal

I was a data analyst there for like five or six years and we got bought out by a private equity company and things changed and you know, I, I guess saw the people that were ahead of me, you know, that have been there, you know, in the industry by 20 or 30 years. And I just realized that although at the time it was my dream job, it wasn't my dream career.

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Faisal

And so I started looking into real estate investing. I flipped my first house in 2018 and it was a absolute disaster, which should have taken six months, ended up taking 14 months, and I probably lost like $10,000, but I was still cheaper than college, so. I took a little break. Yeah, took a little break. Found out that my wife was pregnant and then decided to start looking into rentals.

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Faisal

I bought what would have been my first rental right at the beginning of COVID, two weeks after my kid was born. And, you know, with COVID shut everything down, delayed the project. I went over budget and decided to flip it and ended up making like $50,000 on that rehab. So.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh, wow.

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Faisal

Yeah. So at the end of 2020, I was like sitting on like a $50,000 nest egg, and I got fired from my job at the beginning of last year. So, yeah. So I and I mourned the loss of that job for like 15, 20 minutes and, you know, kind of decided to go into real estate full time, whether it was my choice or not.

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Faisal

Um, yeah. And just, you know, my wife was freaked out, and so I just told her, like, you know, here's the game plan. You know, give me 6 to 8 months to figure this out. And if I can't, then, you know, I'll try to find a job come summer time. And so I took that nest egg and I invested, I think, like 20 or $30,000 into my data and systems, just starting a wholesaling company.

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Faisal

And as I got more and more into it, I realized that there had to be a better way. So I started looking into different data providers with the eventual intent of selling the data. But I wanted to test it in my business first. So end of last summer I found a provider that I liked, started testing it in my business a year ago.

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Faisal

Now and have been crushing it ever since. So beginning of this year I started selling that data to other investors just kind of out of concept. And when they started getting deals, you know, that's when I decided I'm going to go full steam ahead with it. So yeah, that's when, you know, I just started selling the data and it's kind of blown up ever since.

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Jarred (Host)

Well, that's a really that's really great. I want to - you hit so many different points that I want to go back a little bit. The first thing I want to talk about is that first flip you did in 2018 you said.

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Faisal

Yeah.

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Jarred (Host)

Tell us about that.

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Faisal

All right. So I hired a coach who he was super experienced, just he was too experienced. So, you know, the delta between where he was and, you know, me starting out what was with too big of a gap. So a lot of the prices that he was getting didn't really apply to someone starting out. So he taught us to go find contractors on Craigslist and that was terrible advice.

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Faisal

Unfortunately.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, that does sound like not great advice.

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Faisal

Yeah. I mean it worked in his business but that's, you know, obviously was more experienced and knew what to look out for and knew the pricing and stuff like that. So yeah, and as you can imagine, every contractor that I bought in fired the next person that came in, had to fix the previous person's work. So you had their fire in like three different contractors.

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Faisal

And finally I got a referral from another contractor that did my carpet and I got two guys that work for another investor. But basically I fixed the house on the side and got me to the finish line and and silver lining or I guess the happy ending is I still use them to this day.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh really. That, that is, that's great because sometimes it's really hard to find even a good contractor. Sometimes it's hard to keep around for a long time.

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Faisal

Yeah, absolutely.

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Jarred (Host)

So it's so good for you. And you said you made, er you lost some money on that deal, which is the College of Real Estate, right?

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Faisal

Of course. Yeah.

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Jarred (Host)

And that does happen. I think most of us, if you've been in the business long enough, you've lost a little bit of money somewhere along the lines. Um, but there's always a lesson to be learned there. And it sounds like the lesson that you learned on this one is, you know, know your numbers on the contracting side and maybe don't hire off of Craigslist.

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Faisal

Yeah, that was the last time.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Yeah, that sounds that sounds like good advice. So from there, um, you said you had moved on and bought a rental property, but that turned into a flip. Yeah, yeah. Getting into rentals around the time of COVID is is probably tricky. I remember, um, during that time, uh, I thought I was going to go bankrupt. I was like, there's no way that this is, this is going to work out.

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Jarred (Host)

I thought the world was burning down, and I think a lot of other people did. And it turns out that that wasn't quite the case. Um, that real estate market really heated up. Um, but yeah, it's, it was a scary time.

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Faisal

That it was.

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Jarred (Host)

So tell us about this rental property.

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Faisal

The one that would have been?

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, the one that would have been.

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Faisal

Yeah. So it was a single family home and in Pikesville. Yeah. You know the area and it would have, it would have been a great rental and it got to the point where I because I went over budget, I just wouldn't have had enough money at the end of the day to BRRRR out and get my next one.

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Faisal

So it would have cash flow probably like, you know, netting five or 600 bucks a month. But that would have been my last project for a while until I was able to raise more capital. So luckily the way things worked out, you know, I was able to sell it in make all that money because I wouldn't have been able to survive off 500 bucks a month.

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Jarred (Host)

Right? Yeah, that makes sense. And and you had a timeline of eight months or nine months or so to convince your wife that this is the way to go?

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Faisal

Yeah, pretty much.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Well, glad that worked out. So then yeah. And um, so it sounds like by the time you, uh, moved on from your job with the software company you had known, you knew at that point that you were into real estate. This was going to be the, the next move. And it didn't sound like you really questioned it at all.

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Faisal

No. Luckily, I had that that sense of a flip under my belt or else, you know, had it been a year prior, I would have been doubting and I probably still be stuck at a job that eventually I'd end up hating again. I'm sure.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, but it would have it would have probably given you motivation too.

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Faisal

Yeah, absolutely.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah.

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Faisal

So I don’t think I would have had I don't think would have had the balls to do it on my own. Just made that leap, you know what I mean?

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Jarred (Host)

It’s a hard leap!

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Faisal

No matter how big the nest egg. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with, like, a family and like, you know, bills and health insurance, you know?

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. No, I hear that. And now that that's been how long now since you said beginning of ‘21?

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Faisal

Yeah.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. So you're coming up on like a year and a half at least, right?

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Faisal

Yeah, absolutely.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. So, um, so what happened then? You said I'm going to start looking at data because you have experience in that field, right? Data.

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Faisal

Yeah. So I was a data analyst for the software company.

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Jarred (Host)

Mm hmm. And you decided that. Hey, I'm. I'm buying data as a real estate investor. What can I do with that?

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Faisal

Yeah. So my initial business plan was I was starting a wholesaling company, and so I set up the systems and I pulled the data like every other investor where I, you know, got it from list source, and then I skip traced it and then, you know, propstream like everyone else. And I was paying 12 to 15 cents a record and I was still getting garbage data.

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Faisal

And so that's when I was like, okay, well, how, how can I improve upon this? I just felt like it was an opportunity to help other investors give them a quality product and still make money myself.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. So let's let's talk about what when you say data, what is data exactly in in this sort of world of real estate wholesaling? And then what we'll touch on skip tracing too it, because I think that's another question that a lot of people have. What is skip tracing?

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Faisal

Sure, so data essentially is pulling lists of motivated homeowners, different motivational factors like inheritance, absentee owners, people that have like high equity free and clear tax delinquency, bankruptcies, stuff like that. So people who essentially have the motivation to sell their house, either at a discount or they need to sell it within a quicker timeline than they'd be able to get if they were listed on the MLS.

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Faisal

And so the skip tracing is basically just like the art of finding homeowners name and number of specific property that you're looking at.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. So how does that process work?

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Faisal

I don't necessarily know. I don't know my different data providers. I have a couple ones basically that that pull the actual property data and then they also pull the data from the different phone providers and software developers match them up.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. So you can just say next time it's actually magic, right? It's just magic, where is my sound effect, is my Sound Effect going to play - now it doesn't want to play. Okay. So you you are pulling data, you're skip tracing, you're providing this information to wholesalers so they can track down motivated sellers or potentially motivated sellers.

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Jarred (Host)

Correct. And as a wholesaler, how many leads does a typical wholesaler look at per month, lets say?

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Faisal

So right now, the way my wholesaling business is set up is I have two callers in Costa Rica that I provide 10,000 records a month. Each caller, and then the funnel leads to my CRM and I have a follow up specialists that follows up with them. Typically it'll take 10,000 records to get about a contract and a half, let's say.

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Faisal

So I'll get about 2 to 4 contracts per month with the two cold callers. Okay. And then from there, the amount of offers to deals we're submitting around 40, 40 to 50 offers for every contract that we're getting under.

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Jarred (Host)

40 to 50 offers. Okay. So you start with 10,000, you get down to 40 or 50 offers and then from there you got a couple of contracts. Correct. Okay. So that's a lot of calling.

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Faisal

It is, yeah. I mean, they're they're doing on a power dialer like 10,000 a day.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. That’s 10,000 a day?

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Faisal

Yeah. 10,000. 10,000 dials a day.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Okay. So they could be calling multiple numbers at one time. How many what's the max amount of calls you can call at one time.

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Faisal

Ten.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Very interesting.

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Faisal

And so basically the way it works is when someone picks up the phone it hangs up the other nine.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Yeah, I've had you know, I think I've had some of those calls before I pick up the phone. It just hangs up.

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Faisal

Yeah, because there's a there's usually a delay also. So like if you're the one that picks up and nobody else does, it takes them, you know, like a couple of seconds. So usually on those on, you know, call center calls, when you pick it up, you say hello. It takes them like a couple of seconds, like to click over.

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Faisal

Usually by that time I hang up.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh, this makes so much sense now. I get so many of those calls. It's you, isn't it? Calling me 10,000 times a day.

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Faisal

Every single time.

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Jarred (Host)

So, um, let's, let's hear a little bit about your wholesaling business. Um, you've been an active wholesaler for it sounds like a few years now.

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Faisal

Yeah. So I mean, you know, about two years but full time since the beginning of last year. But I hadn't done a ton of wholesale deals before going full time into this.

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Jarred (Host)

So you had, had you done any wholesale deals before that or were you focused on, you know, flips and rentals?

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Faisal

Two, I think.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah.

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Faisal

Yeah. They didn't get me a lot. So my very first wholesale deals from that, that first property that I had next door neighbor came over and I was just literally sitting on the stairs with him talking and he said his dad had a property that he wanted to get rid of and that he was talking to another wholesaler.

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Faisal

And so I got it under contract at $10,000. It was ah, I mean you're familiar with the area, it was in Park Heights, so you know, okay, the greatest area off of Reisterstown Road and I initially found a buyer for it for 13,000. I came from another wholesaler, so him and I were going to get 1500 each.

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Faisal

And then at the settlement table, the buyer didn't show up and so ended up it took me another six months to find another buyer. And obviously the homeowner was obviously stressed out about it. And like you know, took some finessing, actually get him to to agree to resign the contract because I end up finding another buyer through another

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Faisal

JV wholesaler sold it for like I think it was like 15,000 at the time. So and I'm making like 4 to 5000 on it.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Well, that kind of helps break the loss out of the the other deal, right?

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Faisal

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Talking to neighbors is so important. The last one of the last episodes we did, we were talking with a wholesaler who, they go in and they try to talk to all the neighbors because you never know who else is around that might also have something that they want to sell. And, and you can create that personal relationship by being there and by showing them, hey, this is what we're doing.

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Jarred (Host)

Here's this house, this is the way it looked. And then this is how they're going to look at the end of the day. And I think that that really helps.

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Faisal

Yeah, definitely. I mean, with me rehabbing the property, I just want to make sure that we respectful of the neighbors, that, you know, all the contractors that were coming over were respectful. And at the end of day, what they end up doing is A: they won't report you for any like noise violations or anything to like the county or the city.

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Faisal

And they'll look out for your property in case anybody's like breaking in or something like that.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, that's. It's always good to have an extra set of eyes.

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Faisal

Yeah, definitely.

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Jarred (Host)

So, um, what are your goals in real estate? What do you want to be when you grow up? That's what I meant to you ask me that a lot.

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Faisal

I still haven't figured that one out. I don't know with with real estate. Just kind of seeing where this takes me and just to continue to scale this like to eventually have a rental portfolio but with interest rates the way they are, I'm going to hold off on that for a little bit. And then just, I just want to see where Pinpoint Skip goes to be honest with you, this is kind of exciting to me because I get a lot more reward by adding value to other investors than, you know, helping a homeowner out of their situation.

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Faisal

Although that's a lot more profitable than selling data right now.

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Jarred (Host)

Right. Now, what makes your data different than your competitors?

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Faisal

For me right now, I have a couple curated lists that I came up with that no other data provider has. One is called a potential absentee list. So it's people who own more than one property that don't have forwarding addresses on them. So they look like they're owner occupied, but basically they're like accidental investors. So it's someone who lived in a house and moved to the next place without selling it.

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Faisal

And then what we do is we scrub it against the absentee list. So anybody who's targeting the absentee list aren't targeting these people. So we have one. Yeah, we have that one. And that one that's called the missing data list. So it's anywhere where there is like a null, a void or a blank in a data point. And the reason that's important is because whenever people go to filter a record on that data point, if that data points missing, it automatically filter it out.

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Jarred (Host)

And can you give us an example of what one of those data points might be?

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Faisal

Yeah. So it'd be like a like home sold or like the the amount it sold for like square footage and stuff like that.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay, interesting. Well, that sounds like a pretty a pretty good couple of lists there. I have not heard of those types of lists myself. And you said you came up with that on your own? It’s creative,

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Faisal

Yeah, like with another provider just to see if we can actually do it.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, it's really creative.

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Faisal

It’s working really well. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. And yeah, we so we test that obviously in my business before on sending it out to customers and it has been working really well in my business.

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Jarred (Host)

So that's awesome. What kind of technology are you guys using in your business?

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Faisal

CRM We use Podio. My follow up specialist uses Mojo.

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Jarred (Host)

That's the dialer, right?

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Faisal

Correct. Yeah.

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Jarred (Host)

I've heard of that.

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Faisal

And we comp using Propstream and Zillow, nothing crazy.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Um, and so you have a software background, right?

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Faisal

Correct. So the software company I used to work for was a software company for personal injury lawyers. So that's where they put like all of their like case information.

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Jarred (Host)

Personal injury lawyers. Interesting are those like the guys you see on park benches and stuff like the Saul Goodmans of the world.

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Faisal

Yup. Absolutely.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Um, and I take it from being involved in, in the software side of things and the data, I guess I'm trying to link what types of data you guys are using and, and what, how your, how you sort of pivoted to real estate data because those are different types of data.

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Faisal

Yeah. It really is. Yeah. So, so basically my job at the, the company was the like lawyers will come to me and they would say like, hey, I want to take a look at I don't know how many cases we settled last month for how much and like by specific case type. And then so I would, you know, basically go in their database and, you know, like magic, I would create this like pretty little report form so that instead of like seeing like, you know, all the little data points, they were seeing like a 30,000 foot view and so a lot of times I found myself consulting them on like, hey, that's not what you

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Faisal

want to look at. Instead you want to look at this. And at the end of the day really has nothing to do with real estate or even like anything with like Pinpoint Skip. But it's just kind of how my mind works with like the data on the numbers and that aspect.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Yeah it seems like it's, uh, there's a skill there to get creative and figure out because there's so many different companies out there doing data and providing lists and they're, they're very similar. So investors are using the same lists over and over. Everybody's calling the same numbers, right?

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Faisal

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, yeah. I mean, I hear people every day tell me that they pull lists from Propstream, batch, listsource that, you know, everyone's doing pretty much the same thing. And so, you know, at the end of day, it all works. It's just a matter of consistency and timing and following up with sellers.

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Jarred (Host)

Right. And not having as many people calling the same numbers is a benefit because you're not necessarily competing with 20 other people you might be competing with three.

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Faisal

Yeah, exactly.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. That's that's really interesting how you've put those lists together. I commend you on that.

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Faisal

I appreciate it. Thanks.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Um, so let's see, I had some more questions here. Um, what is a tip that you have for a real estate wholesaler or investor that's looking to get into the business as it relates to pulling data and what what to look for when when looking at a data company?

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Faisal

Sure. So I use a technique in my business, called, in my wholesaling business called list stacking. So I used software called REI Sift, you can go and get it's like 50-100 bucks a month and you literally upload each list based on the like pain point. So code violations, tax delinquents and then I layer with like some of the equity stuff like people own and property free and clear or high equity.

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Faisal

And the people that appear on more than one list is what we target first. So list stacking is basically I mean literally just pulling all the property information and then like stacking those lists on top of each other to see who appears on more than one list. And in my business, we target the people we who are on stacked lists first.

00;24;00;19 - 00;24;19;08

Faisal

So for new people, what I suggest is invest in that software and instead of targeting 10,000 people, just target the people who are the most motivated and the ones that are on the stacked lists, So instead of like, you know, trying to cast a wide net, you're doing more of like like a sniper approach.

00;24;19;26 - 00;24;30;17

Jarred (Host)

Okay. So the idea is that if a, a potential seller is on more than one list, they're more motivated or potentially more motivated than somebody who might just be on one list.

00;24;30;29 - 00;24;52;25

Faisal

Yeah, exactly. So my last deal, we got a person who was on the code violation list, the vacant list and the pre-foreclosure list. Yeah. And so with that, obviously, you know, they, they were, they were under the gun to sell their their house at a, you know, accelerated pace.

00;24;53;15 - 00;24;57;07

Jarred (Host)

Yeah. I would say if I was on on those lists too, I might not want that house anymore either.

00;24;57;18 - 00;24;58;10

Faisal

Yeah, absolutely.

00;24;58;14 - 00;25;20;24

Jarred (Host)

That's a lot of lists. Okay, that's very cool. All right. Let me see. I think that's all really the questions that I had for you today. Is there anything else that wholesalers might want to know about you and your business and how they can how they can best utilize your data?

00;25;22;09 - 00;25;44;19

Faisal

How I mean, I do a free consultation calls. So what I do is I just hop on, you know, call with different wholesalers and just, you know, see what they're doing in their business, try to steer them in the right direction. Because I hear the frustration in people's voices all the time that they tried texting. It didn't work, and then they tried calling, it didn't work.

00;25;44;19 - 00;26;12;04

Faisal

And then, you know, people are trying to do a million different things rather than just focusing on one avenue and, you know, just trying to scale that. Like I said, in my business, all all we're doing right now is cold calling. And although we're throwing a lot of data at it, it's working. And so, you know, I just tell people to just try to like stick to one method and whatever it is, just put all your eggs in that basket because it all works.

00;26;13;05 - 00;26;39;19

Faisal

And at the end of day, my my data is $0.08 a record. You know, it's a lot cheaper compared to PropStream, that's like $0.12. And I think batch is $0.10. And then we set up a coupon code with you guys. So when you go to checkout, put in the, the code Wholster, all caps, thats W H O L S T E R and you'll get 10% off your order.

00;26;39;19 - 00;26;41;08

Faisal

So it's even cheaper.

00;26;41;08 - 00;27;08;10

Jarred (Host)

Oh, that's really great. I think a lot of people can take advantage of that. We'll put that link or that information in our show notes too. And I wanted to make a point that this advice you're giving right now about just focusing on one thing is not only applicable in just wholesaling, but real estate in general, because it's so easy to get shiny object syndrome in this business, there's a million ways to make a buck.

00;27;08;10 - 00;27;28;24

Jarred (Host)

And I think it's really, really great advice that you're giving to just have have one thing to focus on that's working for you. And then we all know that that can get boring at some times and people will start to do other things. But if you're if you're too spread out and you're not focused, it can you can get easily lost in this business.

00;27;28;24 - 00;27;31;06

Jarred (Host)

So I think that's great advice.

00;27;31;06 - 00;27;32;06

Faisal

Yeah, great. Thanks, man.

00;27;32;19 - 00;27;49;04

Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Faisal Hey, thanks for coming on the show. We we love skip tracing and learning about it. I know I've I've already learned a lot just from sitting here today. And I think a lot of people looking to get into this or maybe already are in this business. I've learned a lot, too. So we appreciate you coming on.

00;27;49;23 - 00;28;17;26

Faisal

Appreciate you having me on. Thanks, man.