Dominating Lead Conversion With GeoFlip

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Jarred (Host)

You’re listening to the Wholster Real Estate Wholesaling podcast. I'm your host, Jarred Sleeth, and I'll be interviewing real estate investors and other industry professionals about their stories, strategies and best practices for investing in today's market. This podcast is brought to you by the Wholster app, the leading mobile platform for real estate wholesalers and investors to buy and sell off market deals - now available on the App Store and the Google Play Store.

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Jarred (Host)

All right, guys, we are here on episode number six with Greg Bilbro out of Scottsdale, Arizona, with a company called GeoFlip. Now, GeoFlip’s really interesting. They are a company that does inbound lead gen for flippers, wholesalers, the real estate guys that need leads - all inbound. And we're here to talk about that. We're here to talk about some other things.

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Jarred (Host)

Greg's really interesting guy and he has he's got some stories. So Greg, welcome.

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Greg (Guest)

Hey Jarred, How are you, man?

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Jarred (Host)

I'm doing great. Absolutely. I appreciate you coming out onto the show. So how did you get started in real estate Lead Gen?

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Greg (Guest)

Real Estate Lead Gen was... It was and is a product of basically being an REI myself for ten years and as an REI for ten years in Phenix, Arizona, from 2008 to 2018. About halfway through that career. Now in year five, I didn't know this, but all my systems started to struggle, meaning marketing systems. Bandit signs were good then

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Greg (Guest)

they were no good. MLS offers were good, then it was no good and so forth. So about halfway through I had to figure out another way to generate leads. And that long story short, was I had a friend who was a kind of a fancy banker at my gym, and he invited me to his house for like a cocktail party where he introduced me to a guy who owned a big, successful digital marketing agency in North Scottsdale. Over a glass of wine, so to speak.

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Greg (Guest)

I was I was talking to him saying, Well, hey, do you think you could generate, you know, could you get a motivated seller to call me off that Internet thing? Right? This was 2013, 14. He said again over a glass of wine. I don't see why not. Let's try. So basically Monday I went to his office and on a handshake, you know, he said, let's do it.

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Greg (Guest)

And so he I had to fund the marketing budget. He owned a digital marketing agency where he could do it all. But we just decided to try Google ads, PPC first, let's master one thing before we go anywhere else. And that was the beginning of it. And after eight months it took us eight months. Which for your audience, boy, spending money for eight months without any return.

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Greg (Guest)

You know, as an entrepreneur, sometimes you got to really believe, Oh yeah. But we believed my partner, that guy at the time, he became my partner. I've since bought him out, but at the time of the story it took him and me eight months of my funding and him working for free on a handshake. Talk about a deal.

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Greg (Guest)

We finally did our first assignment. We did an assignment of a contract in a zip code 85032, which is a really great zip code in Phenix, Arizona. We made our ad spend back, I think it was an $8,000 assignment, if I recall, and I had spent a week in PPC. Okay. But the point was, is we did it, we did it, we did it once.

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Greg (Guest)

That's proof of concept. I said, if we could do it once, we could do it twice and we could do it twice. You could do it thrice, right? So that experience in 2014 led me to we're here to 2023 and doing the same thing the whole time is generating leads with pay per click, Pay Per Click Marketing.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay, so you've taken a system that you essentially built for yourself and you now work with other investors to help find them leads.

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Greg (Guest)

That's correct. And at the time I didn't have any clue or thought of that. It was truly my marketing system started to struggle. So I said, Hey, we need to figure it out. And so we did. And what happened, Jarred, is after we really got a taste of the ability to scale, I burned the boats. I said, Let's stop doing everything else.

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Greg (Guest)

Let's just focus on this and get good at it. And so we did. And that's all we've done ever since. 2017 is the first time we brought this service other than myself as a principal to other REIs. So we finally made it a service and did a test pilot with three clients around the country. One guy in Atlanta who's a great guy and friend of mine, one gal in I think it was Portland, who's a friend of mine, and and then we did one local.

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Greg (Guest)

I knew Phenix, but I gave up my Phenix Geo, I had to give it up. I thought that was appropriate to give up my baby, to give it to somebody who's not me, to really pressure test this thing because maybe I'm just super talented, maybe I'm just a wizard at my thing and and another guy can't do it right?

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Greg (Guest)

So I gave it to two different people here in town, one after the other, and they both prove concept. So once I knew I could do it in Atlanta, I could do it in Portland. And two guys did it here in Phenix, Arizona, in my backyard. And all of this means proof of concept generating leads and closing deals with a return on investment.

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Greg (Guest)

Right? All three of those was proof of concept. So I knew in 2018 I knew what I wanted to do. I wanted to go national. And so we did.

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Jarred (Host)

Well, that's awesome. And that was about five years ago, it sounds like.

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah, at 18 I went full time to January 1st, 2018.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh great. Okay, so do you have any stats? Like how many deals have you guys been able to help investors close over the last five years?

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Greg (Guest)

The last time I checked, all this stuff, and I have it somewhere on a dashboard, but we're probably above $10 million in in gross rev generated and tracked. We're probably over 500 dollar er deals, closed deals. I'm sure we have a zillion leads, but I don't really get too worried about our leads. Inbound leads are the highest converting lead in the whole industry from what I can tell.

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Greg (Guest)

And so our lead, any inbound lead company is going to have a lead count. That's much lower than all those outbound lead companies. I could get 10,000 leads in 5 minutes on Craigslist. Right. But that doesn't do anything for anybody. Right? So we talk about convertibility. Our convertibility is about one in ten for good clients and good Geo’s, one in 15 and one in 20 for clients running their business, maybe a little less professional or Geo’s that struggle a little bit.

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Greg (Guest)

But we've been tracking every single one of these leads, deals, escrows and gross revenue dollars since 2018.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay, Those are impressive numbers. Um, let's just try to nail down some of this terminology for listeners that might not be as familiar with the industry. So we have - What's an inbound lead?

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Greg (Guest)

Oh, great question. I had to learn this. I want everybody to realize there is a key distinction

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Greg (Guest)

here.

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Greg (Guest)

That it took me a while to learn this. And I have also learned that this is not well understood in our industry. Some of the experts know this, and I'm not really saying I'm the expert, but I know these guys and I know how we think about it. The way I describe it, and it's not perfect, but an inbound lead means they're coming to you.

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Greg (Guest)

But it's in my opinion, it's because the motivated seller, it's upon their own volition, it's their idea. It's what they want to do. They're coming up with the concept of, Hey, I want to make an outbound effort to do something, taking action. So the opposite of that, Go ahead.

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Jarred (Host)

So that's a little bit different than somebody calling you off a piece of mail you sent them.

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Greg (Guest)

Right? Yeah. Well, that's the opposite. It's not a little different. It's the other way. Right? It's not their idea, right? It's by definition. And they didn't think of it, right. In fact, it's the other way around. If you're calling somebody off a list, you are. Well, what my previous partner is doing called interruption marketing. You know, an interruption marketing means it's not their idea.

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Greg (Guest)

It's and they're not thinking about the inbound call right now. They're at work. They're walking their dog. They're doing their taxes, they're arguing with their girlfriend. And then you call them and you're interrupting their world. There's nothing wrong with that. It's fine. It's just different. They have they have different sets of conversion numbers. Right. You're going to have to do different amounts of calls to get one deal on those two lead types.

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Greg (Guest)

So inbound and outbound, totally different.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. I've got inbound leads coming to you of their own volition, outbound or you're calling them potentially interrupting their evening. Yep. Yep. And another, I think a piece of terminology here we're talked about is a geo, and that's a geographical area.

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Greg (Guest)

Sure. And that's just kind of our like brand because we're GeoFlip.com You know, I did didn't ring when I said MarketFlip.com I'm like, what's your market? That doesn't really, I didn't, that didn't make sense so GeoFlip was real simple. It's essentially shorthand for geography which is which me synonym for your market. I have found that REIs have a unique many have a unique understanding of what their market is.

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Greg (Guest)

And also what their market is not. And it is not the county or the city or state boundary line. That is not how REIs think. REIs think, Oh, this is my town and I love the East part and the Southwest is terrible. So I hate that part and the Northwest is really good. So I want to double down that part and that's how I like it, because that's how they think has nothing to do with the boundary, has nothing to do with counties.

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Greg (Guest)

You know, that's just kind of how they think. So we in our world, we define a geo as whatever our client thinks is their market. That's the geography.

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Jarred (Host)

Got it. And another terminology here, it sounds like REI is a real estate investor.

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Greg (Guest)

Sorry, I thought that was a given. My apologies, kind sir.

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Jarred (Host)

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. We're not going into the outdoor equipment centers in our local markets. Yeah, we're not camping.

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Greg (Guest)

Not camping.

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Jarred (Host)

Awesome. So let's back up a little bit.

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Jarred (Host)

What? How did you

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Jarred (Host)

get into real estate all together?

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah, it's an interesting sort of career path. And for people who are younger and starting, let's say, twenties or thirties, this might be a good story for them to hear, especially twenties, because I can go back now on a probably wouldn't call it a mistake, but I would say like hmmm if I would have had a mentor at this time, at this one moment in life, I bet you that things would be pretty different.

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Greg (Guest)

Now things turned out okay. I'm doing good and I'm running GeoFlip and so forth. But I remember as a 23 year old, the first piece of real estate I ever bought was a four plex because my fraternity brother, all he talked about in the fraternity was getting rentals and he had me read a book and he read a book and I read a book while we camping and it was hunting one year and I read a book on apartment buildings.

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Greg (Guest)

And so I went and bought a four plex through another fraternity brother at age 23.

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Jarred (Host)

Wow.

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah, it was 120k list. I bought it for 110, I believe, and it was, I think two occupied, two not occupied, and both of which were uninhabitable. So they needed some reno.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay.

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Greg (Guest)

This is my first rodeo. Then I bought a normal house at 24 and moved in with roommates and then I bought another four plex at 25. So I have two four plexes and a house. And at that moment at 25, I was able to do this because I was a stockbroker and a big insurance and investments company. So I had like an income and I was able to do it.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay.

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Greg (Guest)

What I ended up doing though, is going the stockbroker route and selling those properties and not really understanding what I had.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh.

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Greg (Guest)

And I should have kept those all three of them because they would all be owned free and clear to this day.

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Jarred (Host)

Oh wow. Okay.

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Greg (Guest)

Right. And then I would, I would want a whole lot more real estate, but I just didn't really understand things. I was busy trying to be a stockbroker and grow the corporate ladder and it was too much to handle. And one of the tenants died. The cops got called on the other tenant. The lady that died, she left a 17 year old girl, her daughter, to the state.

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Greg (Guest)

I mean, this was just heavy stuff for me as a 25 year old to be like, dude, I have to work 60 hours. And this poor 17 year old daughter, the the her mom had whatever, a diabetic something or other and died. And it was just like, man, it was a lot to handle. So I sold those things.

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Greg (Guest)

Taking the quick, easy money. Yeah. And shouldn't have, shouldn't have.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of stories out there like that. I think. It doesn't sound like you are necessarily a what do they call it. Tired landlord yet but, getting there. Maybe.

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Greg (Guest)

I just thought like I had to do one thing well and work was a bear, you know, at my firm it was a fortune 100, you know, just like boiler room. If you know that movie I worked for a company like Boiler Room. They expect your butt there early. Stay late. See, on the weekends, wear a suit and tie every day, you have 100 calls.

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Greg (Guest)

Grind, grind, grind, sell, sell, sell. So that was just a lot as a new guy to also be figuring out real estate. I did the financial planning for ten years and then I came back to real estate at 30 at age 31 or so I think is when I started flipping whenever ‘08 was.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. It's a really is hard to do more than one thing really well.

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah. Boy that's that's so true. And today that's a, an axiom if you will something I live by at Geoflip. I have not done a single deal or a single transaction or represented a single client. I'm a licensee. I've done no JVs. I've done nothing for five straight years trying to build a new muscle.

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Greg (Guest)

As an entrepreneur, I love doing that. It's fun for me. I like to learn new things, tried new things, and now I can say I have a a decent understanding on what a SaaS company is - software, software and subscription business.

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Greg (Guest)

models.

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Greg (Guest)

Because we are that I understand a fair amount of technology now I was not tech savvy ten years ago. I get websites, I get the cloud, I get devs, I get Fullstack, I'm not showing off. It's just I now have learned a new skill. I know these people, they work for me, you know, and so I'm happy that I was able to put one foot in the tech world and now that's all I've done for five years is just generate leads with our system completely in the software tech space.

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Jarred (Host)

Okay. Yeah, It's impressive. It is. I mean, coming from, you know, having a tech company myself, it is uh, I don't have a tech background, so it is a big learning curve there, it is a lot to learn.

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Greg (Guest)

How did you learn your tech side? Are you just what I would call an autodidact? You teach yourself?

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Jarred (Host)

Uh, somewhat. I certainly haven't gone to any formal training. I mostly learn through my developers. Yeah. That's mostly how I learned.

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Greg (Guest)

That technique you’re speaking of. Right there is how I learned construction in the fix and flip space. I never knew construction prior to what I did was I called five roofing guys when I had a house with a bad roof, and I jumped up on that roof every single time in Phenix, Arizona, even if it's 120 degrees outside in June, I always got on that ladder.

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Greg (Guest)

I always walk that roof and I always listen to them very carefully where they would critique the roof or tell me what's busted or working or fixed, etc. You do that with five roofs and five contractors and you get 25 iterations. You understand roofs decently. You're okay, you know, you're good. You can go renovate some roofs now, right?

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah. That's how I learned. Same thing in the software space. I'm learning kind of the same way.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, because construction and software are very similar.

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Greg (Guest)

Oh, they are. So what's what's worse? You know, I really started to have a sense of disdain for the REI space because in the fix and flip world, part of fix and flip is construction. And that was my biggest struggle. It was. It was the worst. I just totally dislike construction. To me, it was where the liability is. It's where the overages are.

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Greg (Guest)

It's where the sleepless nights are. And then I get into software and I realize, oh, budget overages are like way worse in software and way worse in software and not hitting deadlines in software, way worse in software for all of your real estate people out there, If you have a $50,000 construction budget and you think you're going to do that in two months and you come in at 60 grand and it comes in at two and a half months, that's that's that sucks.

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Greg (Guest)

It's not fun. You know, it came over budget and over time, but it's also normal. That's normal. That happens all the time in the fix and flip world.

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Jarred (Host)

Yes, it does.

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Greg (Guest)

In the software world. If it's going to take 50 K in two months, it's 150 K and a year and a half. That can be. It's really true. I've seen I've been there, I've seen small budgets and timelines become three and four and five X in in the software space. Yeah. And that's one heck of a new learning curve.

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Jarred (Host)

I, yes. These are all very true things.

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah, I'm speaking the truth. Yeah.

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah. So something that we talked about a little bit before the show that it seems like you're fairly passionate about is getting this message out to investors that might be trying to get into the business that this is not this is not an easy business to get into.

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Greg (Guest)

Yeah. What, you want me to just kind of go?

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Jarred (Host)

Yeah, what makes you passionate about that message?

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Greg (Guest)

Well, I was on a podcast a couple of months ago with a client of mine, and this is where it kind of began. This was sort of the impetus. And so this message is meant for your audience and anybody who who gives a darn who is in our REI space, especially if you're new, if you're sub couple one or two years, three years, I think this message is very good for these people.

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Greg (Guest)

And I also think Jarred, that your audience is not going to really like this message because it doesn't come with rainbows, you know, And what is it, butterflies and unicorns or something? Yeah, whatever that statement is, it's just no longer true. This business has become ten X harder, and I don't think the general audience that we listen to, the gurus, the YouTubers, the podcasters, I don't hear them saying this and therefore I find it to be slightly disingenuous.

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Greg (Guest)

And what I don't want to do is I don't want to call out my industry saying everybody's a big fat liar. Yeah, because that's not what I'm doing. Let me unpack this. Sure. Everybody who's on YouTube or what have you, they're marketing for something and you can't attract people with a negative message. It's very difficult to do. It's the honey vinegar thing.

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Greg (Guest)

So when you see these gurus online and I know so many of them, I've been in their courses, I've flipped deals to them, I've lost deals to them, I learned from them. I know these guys, I know their business models, right? I mean, in Phenix, Arizona, there's like 15 gurus that live here in town that I've done something with.

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Greg (Guest)

When they say stuff like Make 100 grand and make 90 some thousand dollars in a deal in a year. And if you're only flipping two deals in a month, but you should be flipping 20 and you know, you can go from if you got a part time job and you can do this on the weekends, or if you can just watch these couple of YouTube videos and put out a couple bandit signs, like, I don't think any of that is not true.

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Greg (Guest)

That's why I'm not saying there's a lie afoot. It is disingenuous and it's misleading for sure. And I will put my flag in that. Here's what the truth is for all the people that are considering this career, this industry, or they're in the year one. Here's what's just true. I got in the business in 2008 and from 2008 to kind of call it 2000, call it like 14.

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Greg (Guest)

And I did a whole report on this. I did all the math, all the numbers, all this, all the so and forth. And anybody before 2008 is before my time. So I can't speak to it. But kind of before 2000, call it 14, the amount of sophistication necessary to do this business. You could be a one man show with a realtor and an iPhone, maybe some direct mail and some bandit signs, and you could make six figures.

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Greg (Guest)

And that was real. I did it. Everybody did it. We were all doing it. Okay. But from 2014 to call it a year ago, this year's different so there's a little Asterix there but call it a year ago 2014 to 2020 22 that six or seven year period. What has happened? Oh, I don't know. Opendoor got into the space.

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Greg (Guest)

They were an $8 billion behemoth. OfferPad got into the space. They were a couple billion dollar behemoth taking IPO's with billions of dollars to buy houses. Sunday was trying to get into the mix Sunday.com they were trying to get in the mix and I think they tried to get their IPO but didn't get their IPO but they were another Silicon Valley backed company trying to do this business.

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Greg (Guest)

Zillow instant offers. Zillow has more residential online information than any platform ever assembled on Earth. They're called Zillow. They got into the mix doing cash buyers what they think the thing called Zillow Instant offers or whatever it's called, I think they got in in 2017. Redfin. Redfin is almost half a billion dollar technology real estate firm out of, I believe, Seattle.

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Greg (Guest)

And they're very sophisticated in technology. That's their thing. And they own brokerages all around the United States. And they got realtors all around the United States, and they got a lot of money, a lot of sophistication. And they got into the business in 2017 or 18, I believe. Yeah. So Opendoor, OfferPad, Redfin and Zillow are not unsophisticated.

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Greg (Guest)

You know what they are? Sophisticated, right? You know what? They have 50 engineers from Harvard and Ph.D. You know what they also have? Unlimited money, billions of dollars in IPOs are doing what? Do you think those billions of dollars in IPOs with 50 engineers from MIT and Harvard are hanging out, playing patty cake and ping pong on on bean bag chairs?

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Greg (Guest)

The answer is probably. But they're also coming for those houses. They’re also coming for the houses. And you know what everybody is not, I don't see people talking about this. People see Opendoor, OfferPad, Redfin, Zillow, Sunday, also American Homes for Rent, which is a Wall Street company which is a buy and hold firm. BlackRock owns Invitation Homes, which is a Wall Street company, which is a buy and hold firm.

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Greg (Guest)

TRICON Residential is a Wall Street company, which is a buy and hold firm. All three of those got in 2010 and 12 and 12. So those three Wall Street firms, which are buy and hold, which means they're a net negative on the system. They buy a house and keep it. So they're pulling in this inventory out the out the thing they started in 2010 and they have not stopped.

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Greg (Guest)

They have scaled. They were the precursor to all this Silicon Valley 2014, 15, 16, 17, 18 stuff. But the point is, is the decade from 2010 to 2020, what have we seen and what have we learned? What is just evident and true? About a dozen multibillion dollar companies that are Wall Street backed and that's it. Or silicon backed and that's it.

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Greg (Guest)

Or hybrids. There's some in Wall Street money in Silicon Valley tech. But the point is, it's the it's the thing in the United States with the most money called Wall Street, with the other thing in the United States, with the most sophistication called Silicon Valley. And they got together to do what? Make cash offers on houses. So anybody who's saying now is the time, this is the best time, it's the right time is the easiest time.

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Greg (Guest)

I want to make one real clear distinction. If the path if you're looking for an easy path to make money, then that is all hogwash. That is B.S..

00;24;57;22 - 00;24;57;29

Jarred (Host)

Mhm.

00;24;57;29 - 00;25;17;29

Greg (Guest)

Is not the right time to go in real estate if you want. If you want it on Easy Street, It is literally in the history of our space, the time you should avoid going into the REI space. Right. When do you want to go into a fight? When the big guys in the ring? The biggest men are in the ring right now and they're buying houses and they're not slowing down.

00;25;17;29 - 00;25;39;01

Greg (Guest)

All from 2010 to 2022. And anybody who says anything otherwise, I would love to debate. I would love to hear that counter argument. I'll close with one point. As a as an entrepreneur, it's always the right time to do the thing that you want to do when you're ready. You don't let the world tell you what to do.

00;25;39;01 - 00;25;46;24

Greg (Guest)

I don't care of ten more OpenDoors start if you want to go flip houses, brother, let's do it. Let's lock arms and do it!

00;25;46;24 - 00;25;55;29

Jarred (Host)

Hey, real estate wholesalers and investors, marketing deals and searching for your next investment property shouldn't be as hard as it is. Creating marketing materials,

00;25;56;00 - 00;25;56;14

Jarred (Host)

Email campaigns,

00;25;56;14 - 00;26;20;08

Jarred (Host)

websites, and sifting through unfilterable leads on social media is a time consuming task. The Wholster app was created to make marketing deals fast and to make it easy to get immediate notifications right on your phone about the deals that you want to buy. Experience the convenience of buying and selling off market properties with mobile technology so that you can spend more time on the activities that grow your business.

00;26;20;20 - 00;26;52;10

Jarred (Host)

Visit our website at Wholster.app and download Wholster today on the App Store or the Google Play Store. There are you made a lot of points there. And so I come from the lending world. I think I've talked about this before and I think that there is a message out there coming from, you know, the gurus and the the YouTubers and the influencers is that, hey, you can get into this business with no money, right?

00;26;52;10 - 00;27;14;04

Jarred (Host)

That's a, it's a big piece of, hey, it's you can anybody can get into real estate. You don't even need your own money to do this. Yeah. So coming from the lending space, I heard a lot of that that hey, I have, uh, $5,000. I have $10,000, and I'm ready to flip my first house. And the hard pill to swallow is that that's not enough money.

00;27;14;27 - 00;27;43;01

Jarred (Host)

And I think what you're saying is true, that the message that you can do this without any of your own money is very true. I've done it. It's just not something that's approachable for somebody that's new because they don't have experience. They've never they've never risked their own money. So, it's very difficult to actually raise any.

00;27;43;26 - 00;27;54;26

Jarred (Host)

And I think that's a point that gets overlooked. So to your point, there's no there's no real lie there. But it is very misleading and disingenuous.

00;27;55;09 - 00;28;14;17

Greg (Guest)

It's just it's standard marketers doing what marketers do. So again, I don't want to point too many fingers at it. I get it. Yeah, it makes sense. The distinction here to your point, Jarred, is can you buy a house with no money and no money down? That is possible without using your money. But a lot of times you still got to raise private money.

00;28;14;17 - 00;28;36;23

Greg (Guest)

So that's the play - Can you buy houses without your money? Yeah, for sure. I've done it. You still often need a chunk of change to get that transaction to occur. Sure. Has anybody ever bought a house with zero money down, raised zero zero equity and just got 100% equity seller carry thing of, you know, with on day one, maybe.

00;28;36;23 - 00;29;01;03

Greg (Guest)

But that's like one in a million, you know, and that's not a business model. It's not practical. It's not how anybody is going to ever be successful in the business. So that message, I just think a counterargument to that message is something that needs to be voiced. It needs to we need to help people to be successful in the REI space rather than jump in thinking it's easy and then they flounder and now they need a loan from their dad or, you know, etc. That's just not helpful for any of us.

00;29;01;25 - 00;29;19;06

Jarred (Host)

So we're setting the expectation here today that this is not easy. There's some things that have to happen first. So what would you say to a new investor that's now heard you say this is this is very hard, but they're still ready to get into this.

00;29;19;23 - 00;29;43;00

Greg (Guest)

Yeah, I'm not the guru or the coach to give the best, you know, advice, but here are some pointers for sure. Yeah, there are people having success in this space. I have now learned that as like one of the principle of, like, wisdom, you know, who is making money in this space. Find that person, get close to him, saddle up, you know, get.

00;29;43;18 - 00;30;02;09

Greg (Guest)

And this. I really do believe this. I've done this. Find that person that's making money in this space and figure out how to be valuable to them. It's the age old apprentice apprenticeship stuff. You know, the if you want to learn how to make something, you help the guy who makes that thing and you take out his trash.

00;30;02;19 - 00;30;22;03

Greg (Guest)

I'm doing jiu jitsu right now. My instructor, who's got 40 years of experience, you know, I do special things for him because I know he's he's investing in me. You know, he's doing other things to teach me the art sooner quicker, faster, better, you know, so I could defend myself. So do that. Find an expert, find a mentor, find a guru is real.

00;30;22;17 - 00;30;41;08

Greg (Guest)

And then say what can I do for you and fill in a hole for them. That, I think if you do that, and you can do that assuming you don't have a job and kids and wives and babies and ten, you know, part time jobs, that that is a good path that just work for that. If you're new find that. That is a path that will work.

00;30;41;08 - 00;30;59;28

Greg (Guest)

It's like almost not going to say 100% of the time, but if you find it, it works. It really just works. That's what I did. And then you kind of go on your own and there's always a separation between mentor and mentee. And that's okay. All my mentors are still people I look up to, people I still send deals to and ask questions of.

00;31;00;22 - 00;31;20;19

Greg (Guest)

And that came from 2008, me working for other people for free. So sweeping the floors, if you will. So I think do that. Find people that have success. Success leaves clues and get saddle up close to those people and become valuable to that person. Don't become a drain on that person. Add to that person or their of their organization.

00;31;21;00 - 00;31;23;14

Jarred (Host)

Got it. That's solid advice.

00;31;24;17 - 00;31;51;06

Greg (Guest)

Another one would be um. There are people that are successful there are systems that are successful. Right. And that that may include the people, the process, the exit strategy, the approach. Some of that might be nebulous to new REIs, but one thing I would say is a systems are now - that's another thing that is part of my my, my little soapbox, which is you didn't really need systems ten years ago.

00;31;51;06 - 00;32;04;00

Greg (Guest)

Those who had systems made a million bucks, those who did not have systems made 100 grand. But today you need systems to make 100 grand. And if you want to make a million bucks, you got to be a superstar with systems.

00;32;04;00 - 00;32;04;10

Jarred (Host)

Yeah.

00;32;05;06 - 00;32;25;23

Greg (Guest)

So you got to be systems minded. You can't get in this business anymore whatsoever. If you don't have a marketing system, maybe a capital system, an acquisition system, a disposition system. A lot of people have h.r. / hiring, screening candidates, systems, you know, etc.. These are all now requisite. And ten years ago, you didn't really need any of these.

00;32;26;26 - 00;32;51;24

Jarred (Host)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because as we talked about earlier, the competition has changed. The market is different than it was. So a lot more that you have to do to get a deal. And maybe we can kind of come full circle here and go back to the marketing piece. So yeah, inbound leads being your highest quality lead, That's that's a commodity these days.

00;32;53;08 - 00;33;14;20

Jarred (Host)

Right. So, what are some ways that maybe outside of GeoFlip? Obviously GeoFlip is an expert in getting inbound leads. Are there other ways that investors can get inbound leads? Maybe they don't have a budget for something like that yet. What what might they do?

00;33;15;17 - 00;33;39;00

Greg (Guest)

Yeah, and I would say to the audience, GeoFlip and my competitors, I would say all of us, and I don't want to speak for my competition, but pay per click marketing is sort of a bigger boy financial decision. It is not in the order of magnitude of hundreds of dollars per month it is certainly in the order of magnitude of that many thousands, multiple thousands or many thousands of dollars per month as a decision.

00;33;39;17 - 00;33;54;23

Greg (Guest)

It's also not something you can do for a couple, three months. You know, it's sort of like you got to if it's if you're going to do it, it's 3 to 6 to 9 months, you know, that's where you want to be thinking. So for many people in this call, I don't know how suitable us or any of my competitors.

00;33;54;23 - 00;34;17;15

Greg (Guest)

It's really just the channel of generating leads. It's a more expensive channel. I would actually say it's less expensive because it's got the highest ROI, but it takes the most capital to make it work right? Other inbound marketers. I'm not some, you know, lead gen expert with inbound and outbound. I know what we do and I know where we fit, but I also know there's other good marketers out there.

00;34;17;26 - 00;34;46;18

Greg (Guest)

I actually almost have a question about marketing these days. I feel that the search engine optimization guys and I'm not an SEO expert, but the SEO guys used to be saying, Hey, do SEO, you can do it for free, you can do it at home, you just do a blog here and blog there. But what has also happened from what I can tell in November, is ChatGPT came out and everybody jumped on that to start doing more blogs and more SEO stuff.

00;34;46;18 - 00;35;13;21

Greg (Guest)

I have a chart at my work and I'm going a little long winded. I hope it's okay. But I have a chart of my work of about my company, my domain, my company's name that we generate leads on, and about 15 of my competitors. And since November to about a month ago, every single one of them out of 15, 14 out of 15, had a huge reduction in their what's called DR score, your domain rating, which is essentially your SEO score.

00;35;14;10 - 00;35;32;01

Greg (Guest)

Some of them got cut in half. So I share this with you because I used to say a SEO is not a bad idea. You can get it done on a shoestring budget. I'm not an SEO expert and I had nothing to sell. But but to me ChatGPT is changing that game. The only one that went up was Zillow.

00;35;32;09 - 00;35;45;14

Greg (Guest)

Zillow went up a point or two. Everybody else went down many points to include my company and all the companies I look up to. So I don't really know if I can endorse SEO as a strategy. To me, it seems like it's a space in limbo.

00;35;45;14 - 00;35;55;01

Jarred (Host)

Okay, now those ratings, what's what's your theory on them dropping? Just there's more websites out there now that it's so easy to write blogs.

00;35;55;01 - 00;36;22;10

Greg (Guest)

I'm speculating that it is ChatGPT having something to do with it, but me and some of the technical people in my team think there's some plausibility in that. But again, that's why I started with saying I'm asking you a question more so than a statement, but like why would 15 companies in my space all generating leads online with a domain or a URL, who are all good at SEO, who are all driving SEO, who I know they've got sophisticated tactics in terms of driving

00;36;22;10 - 00;36;38;20

Greg (Guest)

their SEO. How come 14 out of 15 took a gigantic step back a month or two after November when ChatGPT came out? I don't know. It's weird. I'm on connecting, maybe disconnect the dots, but I'm asking, I think, a reasonable question.

00;36;38;20 - 00;36;39;15

Jarred (Host)

It's a good question.

00;36;40;08 - 00;37;01;22

Greg (Guest)

Yeah. So in terms of lead gen, PPC is a big hammer, A very big hammer. So you got to have, you know, thousands of dollars. SEO is weird. I don't understand SEO right now. Direct mail. In my opinion, direct mail is a dinosaur waiting to die. I mean, think about millennials in a few years when they own all the houses and other.

00;37;01;24 - 00;37;24;18

Greg (Guest)

I know millennials are not owning houses because they're struggling to buy houses, right? Well, as younger people such as millennials start to be homeowners disproportionate in percentage to the elderly that we think of elderly today, what did millennials in the next generation grow up on? One thing they didn't grow up on was mailboxes, right? Maybe a digital mailbox called your iPhone or your email.

00;37;25;10 - 00;37;31;29

Greg (Guest)

But that's, you know, an abstraction. They never went to the corner of their house and opened the thing and put the flag down.

00;37;32;08 - 00;37;32;15

Jarred (Host)

Mhm

00;37;32;15 - 00;37;49;29

Greg (Guest)

And got letters out. They don't do that. That's not their move. So I think direct mail is going to be weird, you know, And I saw direct mail and all my competition, the guys that do direct mail, I should say, and my clients, I remember back in the day used to be, I think, a 2% response rate. Sean Terry used to say this, Kent Clothier

00;37;49;29 - 00;38;12;21

Greg (Guest)

used to say this, Justin the other guy said this. I think direct mail is like a half a percent rate now. So it's got cut by 75% in the last handful of years. So that I don't know if you want to play that numbers game, you can but direct mail and remember, if you started today, you're not going to get leads for probably some weeks or months because you got to wave mail people four or five times to get it to go right.

00;38;13;17 - 00;38;25;22

Greg (Guest)

So again, it's a pro and con. Nothing wrong with mail. I just think it's a dinosaur and it's slow to get going. Not a plug for GeoFlip but we start today. You can have leads like within 24 hours. Like we turn it on and it goes.

00;38;25;22 - 00;38;26;02

Jarred (Host)

Yeah.

00;38;27;24 - 00;38;47;08

Greg (Guest)

What else? A cold calling. Here's another good example of my presentation from before. There are a lot of REIs that now have cold call centers, whether hired in the Philippines as a vendor or in-house, where they manage a dozen people. That's very expensive if you're managing in the Philippines. But that's okay. It's just it's a big

00;38;47;08 - 00;38;47;17

Greg (Guest)

bill.

00;38;48;23 - 00;39;11;00

Greg (Guest)

If you're doing it in-house to save the money. Now you have ten more employees and you have to do h.r. You've got to deal with all that stuff and whatever. These are both solutions, call centers that I saw the entire industry in the last five years, six years, seven years migrate to. I can tell you in my day, ‘08, 9, 10, 11, 12, I could name zero REIs that had a call center.

00;39;11;00 - 00;39;35;05

Greg (Guest)

Zero. I'd never even heard of it. Right. Today I could name 50. Every everybody, every one of my clients either has a call center or has hired a call center. Every guru I know as a call center or hired a call center. So that's another thing that reachability and connectivity via phone human human buyer to seller. This has dramatically changed.

00;39;35;05 - 00;39;55;16

Greg (Guest)

It's become a hundred x more difficult. So cold calling as a lead strategy works and I know the big players do it. So I don't want to I don't want to, you know, shoot it down. But you got all that money, you know, you got all those people to hire. It's another big hammer in terms of trying to generate leads and connect with sellers.

00;39;55;27 - 00;39;58;05

Jarred (Host)

Yeah. What do you think about Text?

00;39;59;12 - 00;40;21;09

Greg (Guest)

Yeah, people do text. I think text again, I sound like like everything is good about GeoFlip and everybody else has got a problem, but GeoFlip and PPC has its own problems, trust me. Yeah, but text I also think is going by the way of it'll be extinct soon because the we're already seeing it. You have to now register for TCR registry.

00;40;21;09 - 00;40;41;11

Greg (Guest)

So I forget what that is, but that's like the new VoIP regulation where you now have to put all business numbers on white lists or they block you. I don't know. But it's new, it's a month or two old. Yeah, we just put all of our numbers on TCR registration. So I encourage everybody to Google TCR registration. If you're making calls, figure it out and get your number.

00;40;41;11 - 00;40;42;26

Greg (Guest)

registered, or else your stuff's blocked.

00;40;43;02 - 00;40;44;10

Jarred (Host)

I'm writing this down right now.

00;40;45;02 - 00;41;02;10

Greg (Guest)

Yeah yeah I think it's TCR registration and I think what you do is you have to call your cell phone provider like if you got AT&T, Verizon, you you got to call your people and I think you got to get your numbers. Again, I'm no expert. You Have to figure this out. My team just did this for me.

00;41;02;24 - 00;41;31;16

Greg (Guest)

But the way of cold calling and texting, I feel two things are happening. One, the rules legislation is changing. The lawyers and the legislators are doing what lawyers and legislators do. They're making it tougher. What are the devs doing? The engineers doing it in Apple and Android? The iOS and Android? What are they doing? They're putting more stuff in these phones.

00;41;31;27 - 00;41;53;07

Greg (Guest)

They're putting more buttons and toggles to privatize numbers, to filter stuff out, to make everything spam, to prevent every single call and text, unless it's my mom, you know, or my brother, you know, my wife or my whatever. Yeah, I'm not married, but you know what I mean. Yeah. So I think the legislative side is making the whole phone connectivity a beast.

00;41;54;02 - 00;42;17;24

Greg (Guest)

And I think the tech dev side is giving users the to put up unsurmountable filters. So I, when I say I really think that there are real roadblocks in the way we get leads in marketing, phone calls stuff is going to be tough, direct mail stuff is going to be tough. Phone call means SMS and phone and cold calling.

00;42;18;09 - 00;42;22;04

Greg (Guest)

That includes ringless voicemail, I think. Yeah, ringless voicemail.

00;42;22;04 - 00;42;23;02

Jarred (Host)

Yeah, that’s a good one.

00;42;23;03 - 00;42;33;14

Greg (Guest)

I think ringless voicemail, cold calling and SMS is all kind of they're different I get they're different, but they're all got the same Achilles heel from what I can see.

00;42;33;18 - 00;42;36;10

Jarred (Host)

Mhmm

00;42;36;10 - 00;42;40;26

Greg (Guest)

So I have basically told your audience that there is no marketing anymore. I don't know.

00;42;41;07 - 00;42;44;23

Jarred (Host)

Well, hold on. I think you were going to talk about bandit signs, too.

00;42;44;23 - 00;43;05;08

Greg (Guest)

So bandit signs. I got my start in bandit signs, so I did well in bandit signs. I still have a fundamental appreciation for bandit signs because they're so simple. They're like, like, you know, it's like yellow pad and clipboard. Simple. It's not that, hard. Yeah. I have not done bandit signs in a decade. I don't know if you're if they work or not.

00;43;05;08 - 00;43;22;14

Greg (Guest)

I think they do. I still see them in Phoenix, so I assume they do. Yeah. Bandit signs. If I had to be an REI today, I would consider that. Yeah. You just have to know anybody in the audience. You have to know that bandit signs in Arizona. I can't speak for other states, but I bet it's the same in Arizona.

00;43;22;14 - 00;43;24;12

Greg (Guest)

They consider it littering.

00;43;25;05 - 00;43;25;15

Jarred (Host)

Oh.

00;43;26;22 - 00;43;41;13

Greg (Guest)

It's putting trash out. Why is it called putting trash out? Because we don't have a permit to put it on the corner. How do you put signs out on a corner? You have to have a permit. If you do not have a permit, you're putting litter on the city. Yeah. What does the city think? If you litter in the city?

00;43;42;03 - 00;44;03;19

Greg (Guest)

100 signs a day for ten days. Dude, you're talking like felony over here. You know what I mean? Because they stack, they stack it up. So just know that bandit signs has that as a challenge. You're going to run into legal disputes or battles. The way around that, I, the, my way around that was a Google voice number so they call you and they couldn't do that.

00;44;03;25 - 00;44;20;07

Greg (Guest)

You know, it's a little shady. You know, because I got phone calls from the city. We all knew the lady. All of us REIs in Phoenix. We knew the lady I forget her name, but she would call and rip us a new one. I'm picking up your signs. I've picked up 75 of your signs. You know I have 500 of your signs.

00;44;20;07 - 00;44;32;21

Greg (Guest)

Do you know when I catch you, all of those signs are going to compound and we're really going to throw the book at you? These were the voicemails I would get from what's her face at the city. So it's a little scary. It's a little dicey to do that.

00;44;32;21 - 00;44;36;00

Jarred (Host)

There's a reason they call them bandit signs. Yeah.

00;44;37;03 - 00;44;58;28

Greg (Guest)

Facebook. I can't speak to, honestly. I have heard of zero people having success with Facebook and maybe there are people having success. I just can't speak to it. I've heard for every person that has success, there's probably nine that have not or 99 so go you know good luck with a Facebook person. I would tell everybody if you're going to do it.

00;44;59;17 - 00;45;23;06

Greg (Guest)

I do believe in the hiring experts and I know I am one in my own self. But man, doing these things yourself these days again, it's too complicated. Yeah. You're up against 50 engineers from MIT and Harvard at Opendoor. That's who's doing digital marketing, right? So that's who you're competing with. If you're not bringing an equally sized stick to the fight, you know, in terms of marketing, you're going

00;45;23;06 - 00;45;23;21

Greg (Guest)

to struggle.

00;45;23;24 - 00;45;24;03

Jarred (Host)

Mhm

00;45;24;20 - 00;45;53;22

Greg (Guest)

Well, let me add one marketing thing that that may give some people an avenue that could that could connect some dots that may help them. Something that has recently happened over the last handful of years that's working is you can try to get leads. Nothing wrong with that. What some clever REIs have done is they had seen other people that have leads and what they've done is brought a different exit strategy to those existing leads.

00;45;53;22 - 00;45;55;19

Greg (Guest)

The perfect example is novations.

00;45;56;16 - 00;45;57;00

Jarred (Host)

Okay.

00;45;57;29 - 00;46;03;18

Greg (Guest)

There are people doing novations these days. Ten years ago, I had never heard of a novation. I don't think anybody had ever.

00;46;03;18 - 00;46;06;07

Jarred (Host)

I'm not sure I know what a novation is to be honest with you.

00;46;06;25 - 00;46;29;02

Greg (Guest)

Okay, No problem. No problem. A novation is essentially you're taking a pretty house as opposed to an ugly house and essentially a pretty situation where you're taking that house to the MLS. So the first question is always why can't the seller take their own house to the MLS? What do they need the REI for?

00;46;29;05 - 00;46;30;11

Jarred (Host)

Okay.

00;46;30;11 - 00;46;55;09

Greg (Guest)

I'm not a novations expert. I've been studying. There are really legitimate, plausible, well-defined reasons that an REI should do the novation. There's value-add. When I see win wins, there are win wins in novations. So to me, if you can create a win win, then by default it is a good idea. There are some pretty house pretty situations where the seller wants full retail.

00;46;55;18 - 00;47;21;23

Greg (Guest)

I'm going to give you an example. Say the seller wants full retail, like whatever, and because they think it's worth that. But the the cash buyer wants to make a 70% offer, let's say. So the deal doesn't happen because seller wants full retail. The cash buyer says, you know what, I know my lowball offer was low for for this is low for you, but I think I can get you not only your retail number that you want, but maybe like an extra 5 or 10 grand, maybe even 20.

00;47;21;23 - 00;47;31;26

Greg (Guest)

I don't know. It's a different program. I didn't present it to you. Would you have an interest in that? If the seller says, Well, heck, yeah, I'd have an interest in that, Why didn't you show that to me the first time around?

00;47;31;29 - 00;47;32;05

Jarred (Host)

Mhm

00;47;32;19 - 00;47;51;18

Greg (Guest)

Well, the idea is a novation, and I won't get into the legal stuff. But to novate a contract, I think, is to essentially dissolve or extinguish the first contract. So I think there's contract one. Then you have contract two and contract two is now the governing contract. And it's not an assignment. I think it like extinguishes contract A as if it never existed.

00;47;51;18 - 00;48;16;05

Greg (Guest)

That's my understanding. Don't anybody quote me on it. I'm not a lawyer, but a novation is not an assignment. It's a complete different thing. Contract B is now the governing contract of the deal. And contract B says we're going to the MLS and there's a stated fee for the REI in there. That stated fee turns into, I believe, a lien on the property.

00;48;16;13 - 00;48;49;20

Greg (Guest)

So the fee to the REI gets paid like any lein release, like a lender. So instead of getting paid a commission like a realtor or instead of, instead of getting paid a gross revenue from a principal buying low and selling high, you’re novating contract A into contract B taking it to the retail market, doing a little value-add a little bit of marketing, maybe paint, maybe carpet, whatever, and trying to get them that extra little amount of money for a known established fee before anybody signs pieces of paper.

00;48;49;20 - 00;49;18;07

Greg (Guest)

So it's clean if you do it right. So why I say that is because that's a new exit strategy when you're working 100 leads. If you've only made lowball cash offers to 100 leads and you've done a couple deals, some deals, that's great. Guess what those other 95 sellers had not heard of before. A different solution. So some REIs what they're doing is they're focusing on lead gen, other REIs are focusing on bringing different solutions to existing leads.

00;49;18;22 - 00;49;19;05

Jarred (Host)

Okay.

00;49;19;13 - 00;49;39;05

Greg (Guest)

Both both are good ideas. But this is, again, another example of what I mean. It is the evolution of the sophistication of the REI to keep in business, to stay, to stay afoot. It is these sorts of pivots that smart, intelligent REIs are required to do to to to keep, you know, to keep the lights on, so to speak, or to grow.

00;49;39;23 - 00;49;54;20

Jarred (Host)

More tools in the toolbox. That's all we need. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. I'm I'm going to research those. I honestly I'd never heard of that before, so that's. That's interesting. I'm learning stuff, too. Yeah.

00;49;55;13 - 00;50;01;03

Greg (Guest)

Cool. Very good. Well, that's why we do this iron sharpens iron, my friend. So that's. That's how this all works.

00;50;01;03 - 00;50;20;00

Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Yeah. Greg, I appreciate you coming on. This has been really fun and informative. And I think a message in this episode that a lot of people aren't saying, which is is always good. We're going to have to thank Travis from one of our prior episodes who put us in touch.

00;50;21;00 - 00;50;35;06

Greg (Guest)

Yeah. Travis. Thank you, sir. He's my Baltimore client. He's a great guy. He's killing it. He loves GeoFlip. We love him. He's one of our favorite clients, favorite geos. And so to Travis, thanks for connecting us to Jarred. That was a really good set of dots to connect.

00;50;35;06 - 00;50;47;06

Jarred (Host)

Yeah. Thanks, Travis. Yeah, Travis kills it, man. He's just. He's such a good dude, so. Yeah, we love Travis. Oh, you know what we need is how can people get in touch with you?

00;50;47;06 - 00;51;11;23

Greg (Guest)

Go to GeoFlip.com. Geo G-E-O, FLIP F-L-I-P, GeoFlip.com You can fill in a little form saying you want information or fill in the little thing that you want an appointment with me to do a strategy session. And then we will review the client's goals and income goals. We will review the client's GEO to make sure that the geography is a good one, viable.

00;51;12;08 - 00;51;28;22

Greg (Guest)

And and then we'll have a conversation about building an annual income plan so that we basically can build a marketing plan around them. What their budget is, their GEO, their goals, their family. That's how we roll. It's not just about lead gen, it's about building income solutions.

00;51;29;05 - 00;51;53;23

Jarred (Host)

I love that. I love that. Greg, thanks again for coming on. Thanks, Jarred. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Wholster podcast. If you want to stand out with your wholesale marketing or easily find more off market deals, leverage the convenience of a mobile app and download Wholster today on the App Store or the Google Play Store.